‘You could be a cult leader’: Diane Morgan and Adam Curtis on Brexit, Trump and his new series


Judging by their work, Adam Curtis and Diane Morgan seem to have little in widespread. Curtis is a Bafta-winning documentary film-maker within the enterprise of constructing sense of all the pieces. As a comic greatest recognized for taking part in mockumentary film-maker Philomena Cunk, Morgan has mastered the artwork of understanding completely nothing. Yet right here they’re, good buddies, linked through Zoom to debate Curtis’s new series of movies, Can’t Get You Out of My Head: An Emotional History of the Modern World.

If something, Cunk may be the film-maker’s target market. By zooming out to take a look at pivotal historic moments in addition to zeroing in on usually obscure, compelling characters, Curtis units out to have interaction viewers who aren’t already immersed in present affairs. His new movies take his method to new ranges by posing a primary, Cunk-like query, akin to: “What is now?” What forces and human failings led us to those turbulent but unusually static occasions, post-Trump and post-Brexit?

In greater than eight hours, throughout six episodes, he takes prior to now century through the seemingly disparate lives of characters together with Jiang Qing, the power-hungry spouse of Mao Zedong, Michael de Freitas, a revolutionary and civil rights activist in London, and Afeni Shakur, the Black Panther and mom of Tupac. Climate change, opioid habit, conspiracy theories and synthetic intelligence are all interwoven with Curtis’s trademark mix of steady-voiced narration, archive footage (together with plenty of random individuals dancing in sluggish movement) and a hypnotic soundtrack.

When they converse, Curtis is at house in north London whereas Morgan is delirious with jet-lag and the results of quarantine in a Sydney lodge room. They have even locked her home windows. She is in Australia to movie the second series of antipodean sitcom Frayed. If nothing else, lockdown has given her the possibility to look at Curtis’s new series twice. They begin in the beginning: how do they even know one another?

Diane Morgan I accosted you at a BBC social gathering, do you keep in mind? I’d simply seen Hypernormalisation and I obtained chatting to your assistant. I mentioned: “What’s Adam Curtis like?” and she mentioned: “You’ll meet him,” and I mentioned:“OH MY GOD!” You turned up, and I used to be fairly embarrassing.

Adam Curtis We’d truly already met via Charlie Brooker at a Screenwipe social gathering.

DM Oh yeah! I hadn’t seen a lot of your stuff by then so I wasn’t that bothered by you.

AC I observed!

DM Then I found all of it and I used to be, like, Jesus that is unbelievable. It’s the mixture of archive and music and your voice. And they really feel like they have been made only for me, which I realise is insane. I feel I get so sucked into the tales that you simply select and the individuals you focus on. They’re not boring individuals. Like Jiang Qing! She could’ve been from Bolton. But I’m so fascinated with how you set it collectively and how lengthy it takes. You should watch archive for hours. Do you’ve got a theme in your head first?

AC Do you keep in mind seeing me two years in the past in Soho and shouting: “When is it coming out?!” Every time I met you you’d say it. It has taken three years. But I at all times begin with a theme and the tales, which is what I spend most of my time researching. I like ambiguous characters. So within the new movie there’s a man referred to as Michael de Freitas, who’s a revolutionary but additionally a vicious gangster, and I like that complexity.

DM I can’t imagine John Lennon and Yoko reduce their hair off for him!

AC And then he stole their cash.

DM Yeah, however their hair, Adam, their hair. They had pretty hair.

AC It’s the twists and turns that I like. I’ve a man referred to as Phil who goes around the world to BBC workplaces and copies the grasp tapes from the cabinet within the again workplace, and brings again, say, all the pieces shot in China since 1980. I simply skim via the QuickTime information actually quick and say: “Oh, I like that.”

A still from Can’t Get You Out of My Head
A nonetheless from Can’t Get You Out of My Head. Photograph: BBC

DM Sometimes I’m watching and suppose: “Where is all this going?” And then by the tip all of it comes collectively like a stunning collage and all of a sudden I really feel like I’ve realized all the pieces.

AC In the previous, I’ve tended to focus on one argument about one thing. And with this one I had a query in my head, which is: why does nobody have another various visions of the longer term? Why are we caught, once we’re additionally dissatisfied? I wished to hint totally different streams that result in now. I additionally wished it to really feel like a multi-part novel however actual.

DM When did you begin fascinated with that query?

AC It was over two years in the past. Why, post-Trump and Brexit, did not one of the individuals who hated Trump and Brexit have any various to supply? Why did they spend all their time going into the rabbit gap of conspiracy theories about Vladimir Putin quite than truly considering: “Well, actually, if all these people are really pissed off, can we offer something better than weirdos like Donald Trump and strange dreams like Brexit?” They didn’t. That was my theme and I had all these tales to suit collectively.

DM The entire factor about Britain is deluded self-confidence, proper?

AC Yeah. And the rationale I used to be all in favour of Michael de Freitas, who grew to become often known as Michael X, is that, a whereas in the past, I met a couple of fellows in Notting Hill who labored with him within the 60s. And I’d learn [De Freitas’s] guide, the place he mentioned there was a unhappiness on the coronary heart of England. These guys mentioned the identical factor, that there was a type of melancholy within the English. [De Freitas] didn’t just like the racism, however he mentioned there’s one thing beneath that, which is a type of melancholy about what they’d misplaced. And I feel you continue to really feel that now, not simply among the many Brexit voters, however you additionally really feel it in regards to the individuals who hated the Brexit voters as a result of they go: “We’ve come to this?”

A still from Can’t Get You Out of My Head.
A nonetheless from Can’t Get You Out of My Head. Photograph: BBC

DM And the movies come proper to this point. Is that why it took you so lengthy, since you wished to attend and see what was going to occur?

AC I wished to do it after the US election, partly as a result of, though we really feel that each one types of issues have occurred, in the event you truly have a look at it, nothing has occurred politically since Trump and Brexit. There was a huge quantity of hysteria however nothing else aside from a candidate who mentioned: “I’m not Trump.” And not one of the construction of energy or inequality has modified. And Covid has made that much more apparent, like a flash of lightning on a darkish evening, exhibiting you the uncooked construction of energy in our international locations and that nothing has actually modified.

DM It all is smart. It’s partly your calm, authoritative voice. I really feel such as you could be a cult chief. You could inform me that bananas have been invented by the Polish secret service and I’d imagine you. There’s one thing hypnotic about it. Did you ever think about using another person’s voice?

AC I attempted that, it didn’t work out.

DM I suppose it’s cheaper doing it your self.

AC There’s a good parody of my voice on-line. Have you heard it?

DM No, however does it say: “But in fact the very opposite happened.”?

AC Exactly.

DM But you realize you’re on to one thing if individuals imitate you.

AC I feel it’s one thing to do with the stress between the fully bizarre collage of stuff and a very calm voice. But what I strive and put into my movies via the archive is a feeling of the feel of the complexity of life, that individuals aren’t merely good or unhealthy.

DM It’s a bit like with comedy, in the event you ship one thing fully straight, it’s funnier.

AC When I began out on tv, I used to be a very younger researcher working for Esther Rantzen.

DM On That’s Life?!

AC Yes. Do you realize the primary movie I made? It was the dog that says: “Sausages!”. It obtained 20 million viewers and it was downhill from there. But the one factor she taught me – and she was fairly ruthless – was that there’s only one rule in tv: People who suppose they’re humorous aren’t humorous and individuals who don’t suppose they’re humorous are extremely humorous. That’s why taking part in it straight works.

DM Why is all of it going straight to iPlayer?

AC Because you can also make extra difficult movies for iPlayer. And you can also make them longer. People watch issues on-line with a totally different sensibility.

A still from Can’t Get You Out of My Head.
A nonetheless from Can’t Get You Out of My Head. Photograph: BBC

DM They’ve chosen to see one thing, they’ve invested extra?

AC Yeah. And subsequently you may truly make issues extra difficult. You don’t have to elucidate all the pieces, they will cease and begin.

DM What are you going to do subsequent, or are you having a relaxation?

AC I’ll go and discover a good story. I do have a brutal concept that tradition has reached a lifeless finish.

DM I really feel like that as effectively.

AC In the Nineteen Seventies, the trades unions, who used to be a liberating power, had grow to be this restrictive, corrupt and decadent power that truly stopped any change. I feel tradition may be the identical factor now, that the tradition has grow to be this extremely inflexible, very restrictive power that pretends to be radical. And that, truly, all of us are trapped inside the media and in tradition, considering we’re all self-expressive, when actually nothing we do modifications something. I’m very brutal about Tupac Shakur within the final movie, about how he wished to deliver the Black Panthers again. But he took it away from politics and into tradition, and then discovered he couldn’t belief anybody. He was all on his personal. Because the difficulty with being self-expressive is you might be on your individual, and you’re not very sturdy on your individual.

DM I simply really feel like all the pieces’s performed by the principles now. And I type of lengthy for individuals to do one thing completely mad and totally different. TV dramas are all about a kiddy that’s gone lacking and some coppers are watching a lake. Or it’s individuals making truffles. I feel that’s why I cling to those documentaries as a type of raft.

AC Everything appears inevitable. This goes again to Philomena Cunk, who’s a bit like Donald Trump. Trump would ask essentially the most naive, silly query. He’d go: ‘Well, why are we fighting all these wars, which don’t truly make the world a higher place?” or, “Why did we send all our factories over to China, and everyone’s taking opioids?” And the rationale clever individuals don’t ask these questions is as a result of, truly, they simply appear inevitable. Or they go: “Well, that’s globalisation.” And subsequently you don’t query something. You don’t make something totally different. There’s a type of uptightness amongst the liberal center courses.

DM I feel we’re amazed by individuals who don’t care what different individuals suppose – it’s virtually like a superpower now.

AC Yes, which implies the age of self-expression has grow to be very inflexible. One of the issues I attempted to place into these movies however couldn’t discover the tales to do it, is that everybody could be very self-conscious as we speak and feels they’re being watched. It’s virtually such as you’re in a Victorian novel, however truly there’s nobody there. There’s one thing very deep in society in the intervening time. What I wish to say to individuals is: we made the world the way in which it’s; it didn’t simply occur. And if we did that, we will make it totally different. You can’t say: “Oh, it’s all going to be nice now Joe Biden’s come back into power.” Bad issues occur as a result of we and our leaders allow them to occur or created them. And if that’s true, then we will change it. That’s the optimistic factor I’m making an attempt to say.

Can’t Get You Out of My Head: An Emotional History of the Modern World is out there on BBC iPlayer from Thursday 11 February


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